In this episode, Rachel and Mandi discuss the concept of Fawning, where people try to please others even when certain behaviors put them out of alignment with themselves.
Our hosts also describe why it is necessary to cut off from relationships that do not offer genuine connections with our authentic selves, as it is unhealthy to maintain such relationships.
Want a podcast like the "Spill Your Guts w/Rachel and Mandi" Podcast? Look no further! I'm Jpaddy from Paddybandwagon.com, your podcasting partner. DM or comment "blessed" on our Instagram @paddybandwagon, and you'll unlock a special offer exclusively for fans of the "Spill Your Guts w/Rachel and Mandi" Podcast. Together, we'll embark on a podcasting journey that will captivate and engage your listeners. Visit Paddybandwagon.com and let's make your podcast dreams a reality.
In this episode, Rachel and Mandi discuss the concept of Fawning, where people try to please others even when certain behaviors put them out of alignment with themselves.
Our hosts also describe why it is necessary to cut off from relationships that do not offer genuine connections with our authentic selves, as it is unhealthy to maintain such relationships.
Want a podcast like the "Spill Your Guts w/Rachel and Mandi" Podcast? Look no further! I'm Jpaddy from Paddybandwagon.com, your podcasting partner. DM or comment "blessed" on our Instagram @paddybandwagon, and you'll unlock a special offer exclusively for fans of the "Spill Your Guts w/Rachel and Mandi" Podcast. Together, we'll embark on a podcasting journey that will captivate and engage your listeners. Visit Paddybandwagon.com and let's make your podcast dreams a reality.
I was really, really waiting on that one. I was trying really hard not to sing along. Why do I always laugh coming into this.
Speaker 1:I think it's because we're dancing. I'm a slave to the rhythm. What up boo? I miss you. I miss you, rachel Prairie, everyone, welcome to Mandy Lee. Mandy Lee Gosh, dang it. She figured out my middle name, everyone, if you've listened to our last couple of episodes, i was trying to be a woman of mystery. She found it out. That's right. You heard it here first. My middle name is Lee L-E-E. Like the bread, mandy Lee. So do with that information What you will.
Speaker 2:Rachel Don like the sun.
Speaker 1:See, oh, it's like that, jesse. What's your name, shane?
Speaker 2:Course it's Shane. Why was why Something?
Speaker 1:respectable, something I can't make fun of. before it couldn't be like. I really want to say Dwayne, for some reason. Usually someone's like Oh, is it James? Oh well, that's weak Jesse James.
Speaker 2:No, I'll slap that person. That'd be a lot of people to slap.
Speaker 1:That's you today. I like it. I like the energy. All right, welcome back. Spill your guts podcast. What episode number is this? Jesse, this is going to be five.
Speaker 2:What.
Speaker 1:Yeah, episode five Rachel Don, how do you feel about that?
Speaker 2:Hey, i didn't know if we would ever even get to the intro, so thank you, Jesse. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Absolutely Well. If you've been with us so far on our four previous episodes, you have been on quite a journey, sorry, we basically just show up and talk about whatever we're passionate about this week or that week And so far we've covered a lot of territory. We've covered some, some topics about spiritual awakenings and the meaning of success. Last week we got real fired up about body positivity and we're still going to be excited to hear some feedback on that topic. I think that that's a bigger conversation, but this week I'm fired up, i'm ready to talk to you about some things. I got something on my mind and I and I and I feel like it's it's meant for the podcast, which, by the way, i think everybody will appreciate that, like for the past two, three months at least, our answer to everything via text is put it on the podcast. So, not only are we going to get merch made that says what was the thing I said Reluctant pilgrims and now put it on the podcast, it's going to be our hashtags. Put that in the notes, put that in the notes, put it on the podcast.
Speaker 1:Reluctant pilgrims, we are here to serve you. You are our people. No, i want to talk about and, like I said, we'll come back to that body positivity conversation at some point, but this week I've had some interesting thoughts about adult friendships and relationships And, believe it or not, it goes hand in hand with everything we've already talked about, even body positivity, in a weird way, because it's all intertwined. Everything's woven together Our confidence, our shame, our healing, our stuff, we need to work on seasons of life It all kind of is connected anyways. So I want to know I've actually I was just sharing with you guys before we started the, the recording that I feel like the things that we seem to be going through each week that we're sharing together, a lot of our listeners are also experiencing.
Speaker 2:Yes, so I resonating hard, right, you are our people if you're out there.
Speaker 1:Um, but I was thinking to myself. You know I've been experiencing some shifts in my relationships and friendships and even like family stuff and weird things. I think a lot of that has contributed to the struggle that I've been having over the summer and you know all the things I've shared. It's kind of a layer of that's what I want to talk about it. I want to get into it.
Speaker 2:It's like I feel like it's the next step or it's a part of whatever. Like this spiritual journey that we're on is kind of like this excavating or like cleansing Cause. Once we start kind of understanding a little bit more about our actual wants and needs and who we are like, once we get that inside right, then it seems like the stuff on the outside the relationships, careers, family, like now we can start addressing some of that Does it align with where we're at.
Speaker 1:Yes, oh my gosh, well, and that's you just said it right there. Like if the if. The first, you know, if the first step is, you know, admitting and acknowledging, and then the next step is moving into inventory. Right, this is one of those things that falls in line, and even last week talking about like feeling comfortable in our body and our skin, and I mean, and that's, that's the outward representation of our inventory. The first thing is like our body, and then what else is beyond that, our relationships, our jobs, our, you know, our experiences, our seasons, and so I thought it was interesting. I was, i was sharing with you the other night and anybody who's been friends with me for a while will know this, but I refer to this phenomenon as the Harry Potter stairs and I can feel it coming and I feel like I'm in it right now. But you know that scene in Harry Potter, i think it's like the first one, because that's the only movie I've ever watched. Oh my gosh, harry Potter. People don't come for me. I always fall asleep.
Speaker 1:I'm so sorry, but you know at Hogwarts how they like climb the stairs and they just like randomly shift and you have to like hold on and then they get like placed on another you know level. I feel like periodically. That's what happens to me in my life socially, yes, is the Harry Potter stairs begin to shift and I realize that, like my season with like a certain person or certain groups of people has like drawn to an end and I'm being like shifted to another area And I, being the reluctant pilgrim I am And also a cancer and also an anagram to and also all of the other things that I could label myself as that some people out there would appreciate. I hate it. I am the most nostalgic person And in parentheses would say people, please are probably need some help, but I have the hardest time like letting go and and I sort of hang on to a fault.
Speaker 2:It's that, it's that good girl programming Tell?
Speaker 1:me more about that. You know I wanted to get you there. I'm picking you off the ledge. Share with me what that means to you, rachel Dawn.
Speaker 2:Oh it's, it is a very this. I call it I. I don't know if it's like a real, actual saying, but I call it good girl programming because it is something so ingrained in me. I'm not sure where it came from. I'm sure if I went back to childhood somewhere, that's where it would come from. I think you know what. Actually, now that I say this out loud, i think it came from some of the stuff that we talked about at the retreat that when I was younger, i didn't, i was, i was weird.
Speaker 2:I didn't really have any friends like. I was an only child. I spent a lot of time alone or with animals or outside by myself. Right or wrong, maybe that is healthy, i don't know But as I got older, i had a lot of trouble connecting with other people or like other kids my age And, as a result, i got really, really good at blending in, at being observing, listening, mirroring and and doing and saying and being exactly like the people that. Like like a millioning Yes, okay, and I wrote this down actually a few weeks ago when I was journaling like is being a Camille? like when people say, oh, i'm a Camille and I can get along with anyone, but like, is that really a good thing?
Speaker 1:Like. Is that a?
Speaker 2:good quality Maybe, maybe in like a work setting, but at the end of the day, doesn't doesn't it mean we're really like not showing up as our, as our authentic selves? I think, yes, they'll need to blend in instead of stand out.
Speaker 1:Right, I think. Well, that's huge. First off, I think there's a difference between adapting to your surroundings and who you like might have to work with or be around. Like adapting is one thing but camouflaging is another, And like what's the difference and how do you catch yourself?
Speaker 2:It goes back to confidence, right? Yes, yeah. Oh my God, look at all of our themes coming together.
Speaker 1:It's almost like we planned it.
Speaker 2:But I think that's where some of this good girl programming started, especially when I was in an all girl school environment middle school, high school and even into college where I didn't want, i didn't want anyone to feel, i didn't want to hurt anyone's feelings I would do things, say things that I didn't agree with or that made me uncomfortable for the comfort of somebody else. And I had somebody kind of call me out a few weeks ago because I use this phrase a lot, even as a 40 year old person Everyone's my best friend, they're my best friend. And this person was like do you really have that many best friends, like my best friends are like? I got like maybe two, maybe, and it sounds like you have hundreds. And it just stopped me in my tracks room and I was like, holy shit, this is that good girl programming.
Speaker 2:Like wanting everyone to feel seen, heard, understood, we're friends, i'm there for you. But like if something actually happened, i could maybe. I feel like there's maybe five people, maybe less. Or if I called them up, i was like, hey, this awful thing happened, like that would even pick up the phone, yeah. And so in the last couple weeks I've had this like want to like detox and cleanse and like unfriend, unfollow, ghost, and stop upholding these relationships that aren't really relationships, they're just like.
Speaker 1:I and we've talked about this going ahead of this episode, and I and I was sharing with you. I was feeling the exact same way. I was calling it social fatigue.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:And it hit me with the good girl programming and I was like mind blown because, of course and to take that even a step further I was after you shared that with me and I was thinking about like the origin of what that meant, because not just like in a fan, like a family of origin situation, or like who you were in your friend group or, like you said, like growing up you were alone a lot, so it became a way for you to adapt, right, mm hmm, it was a little different because I was technically the oldest of seven. Growing up, like when you consider like all the marriages, remarriages, divorces, all the things in my family, like there's a lot going on, I was the oldest one. I would say that, as I've sort of like done my work and dug into the origin of that, for me it was, you know, i was the oldest. In hindsight, i think that there was, you know, some like abandonment issues and things that went on, and so I really developed fawning quote unquote as a way to react and respond to that, and I even I didn't even know that word or that like language until recently Mm hmm, but because you hear a lot about fight or flight, yeah, I really was not familiar with fawning as a response and I was like, oh wow, that's what I do or did. Yeah, right, and I thought it was so interesting because a lot of that behavior can just get sort of dismissed as being a people pleaser And people don't really have respect for people pleasers unless you, like are one like people pleasers, like will, will take that on that label on and just be like you know when the truth is. Is that? And tell me if you resonate with this at all.
Speaker 1:In leadership, especially if you are someone who struggles with a fawning response or, as you say, a good girl programming, it is much easier to get taken advantage of in a leadership role because you can sort of get away with toxic behavior and that situation If that makes sense.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so, like as a leader in the various roles I've held, right in in church culture and in in fitness, whatever. There there becomes a demand on your performance, right, your, your availability, like you are expected to always be on, to always be considering your tone and your response to people, making people feel a certain way, making sure, like you just said, making sure people feel seen, heard, understood, safe in a room that became my responsibility for everyone, even though nobody told me that was my responsibility and it was me who took that on, almost to a fault every time, yep. And as I heal and as I sort of go more and more inward and care more about the way I feel and am seen and heard and valued in a room versus everyone else first, i'm abandoning that and I'm realizing a lot of people in my life don't like it.
Speaker 2:Oh my God, i got called hostile last week.
Speaker 1:No.
Speaker 2:Because I am. I think we're talking about the same thing. Good girl, because I'm a fawn or two, but I didn't even know that label or how to name that until a few years ago. Because of social media, right? because, yeah, like me know, it was a choice of a response.
Speaker 1:I was even I'm so sorry to interrupt you I even just just on the fawning thing. I just really had to digest that for a long time, because in leadership you are celebrated For being the most available, the least selfish, the the absolute most boundaryless person around, for the quote unquote. Sake of the mission, yes, and then there's all kinds of resentment that gets thrown at you because of that. And at the end of the day, it's like abusive to yourself.
Speaker 1:Oh, my gosh, the standard is like never satisfied. and then there's an expectation, because there's no boundaries, you know what I'm saying Sorry, i didn't mean I'm getting passionate over here.
Speaker 2:I'm also very caffeinated, So No, i'm happy we're talking about this, because I'm Fawning, i didn't even. I didn't know what love bombing was.
Speaker 1:I'm a love bomber because I thought, explain that, for maybe somebody who doesn't know, or even finding.
Speaker 2:I guess I didn't Define that either for me This is my definition of it is a choose me response. It's goes to that like we're best friends, we're best friends, yeah, where you fawn and you fall. It's almost like you kneel at the feet of these people and like put them up on a pedestal to make them Feel special. And all this and and in reality, like that's all, or I should say was all real to me, like my ability. I used to pride myself and my ability to give and show love, like give it away No boundaries Yes, listen, i do not recommend No boundaries, but again, i was praised for it. People like me for it. I had a lot of friends for it. I feel like I probably elevated in my career because of my ability to really and truly like that's real just Full, like we're flowing full of love.
Speaker 1:But then when I wouldn't get it back, or if it got taken advantage of, yeah it starts to take its toll right, because when you're in it, when you're really truly in it, it feels right. It feels like this is my purpose, like I'm just, i'm here to serve. This is bigger than me.
Speaker 1:Yes, but it's perfect, that cannot last very long. No, and I don't know about you, but almost every single time I end up in that scenario in my life whether it's in a work setting or even in my family Or different friendships I always end up sort of putting myself in that, my unhealed self, right Like. Now I'm aware, so I'm hoping to make different choices in the future, but in the past it's like I would find myself in these scenarios Where everybody would then rely on me to save the day and I'd be like yes, i'm in, i'm reliable, i'm dependable, i'm the rider die. And then I do that and then they hate my guts for it, mm-hmm. And I did not realize that I was the one creating that over and over and over again out of my own Like unhealed wounding of like, like you said, choose me, choose me, choose me.
Speaker 1:Yeah. And Now that I'm like aware of that And I realize I have the capacity to choose me, yes, you know, without the fawning and this being of service and showing up for everyone, like we were talking the other night about, just like, like, as grown-ups in our 40s, we're allowed to just not Have relationships anymore with no explanation. We're allowed to walk away and just be like. This doesn't work for me And that's super uncomfortable because it's like, well, as this uber responsible person I'm like, well, shouldn't I, you know, ask for a conversation and give like some kind of exit interviewers?
Speaker 2:It's real though, because, because suddenly right, like when we stand in like this new whatever this is, like this new power, and I was telling you like I was pit, like I was mad, because I had a couple things happen in the last week, where I had a moment where you and I don't know if we talked about this yet, but we call it. Do you mean what you say? So, like you declare something, do the world to yourself, maybe do a couple friends that you want to manifest in your life, and you stand your ground, and then the universe swoops in and Says do you mean what you say? and presents you with people, situations, scenarios to test you.
Speaker 1:Yeah, like practice this, like Download you just received.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you said you wanted to stand in your power and not fawn and not, and have boundaries and not love bomb. Well, here's a bunch of people that you shouldn't be fucking with anymore That I'm gonna suddenly plant back into your life, where you now have to prove it.
Speaker 1:Mm-hmm.
Speaker 2:And I think that's kind of like where you and I got really fired up this week, this week, because it happened no new friends, no new friends no, new friends.
Speaker 1:No, no, shout out drink. Oh, we have permission to say his name. I've talked illegal. Oh man, it's super the stars listen, let's true, though, no new friends. Rick was onto something. Drake's probably in his feelings too. We he gets made fun of, but it's cuz he's probably Freakin people pleaser as well for sure, finds himself in these.
Speaker 2:Probably not anymore, but well.
Speaker 1:I'll get out again. Well, it really stinks because, like I said, as as a very nostalgic person It's been, you know, i'm like in my heart, i'm a deep, i'm a deep, you know, poet in my heart and I just have the hardest time because it's like when you know that something's come to an end with someone and You're like grieving and you're kind of going through the process of like accepting That like that moment in time is over and like the relationship will not ever be what it was, and sometimes like over for good, good, right, like sometimes there's like a permanent intentional line drawn and I have such a hard time with that because I like grieve forever. I feel like yes.
Speaker 1:And I was just thinking about you know a situation, as I was driving over here and kind of thinking about what we were gonna Talk about today and stuff, and I just thought it's so interesting because what I'm grieving, the person or people I'm grieving, literally don't exist anymore. Yeah, i mean they're still alive. God bless them wherever they are. But like I know that, like the person that's sitting here talking to you today is not The same person that I was two years ago, five years ago, ten years ago. I've evolved and changed in, like into a million versions. I feel like, so like the people that I'm actually grieving and missing like really don't exist anywhere else But in my mind, so like, why am I a glutton for punishment?
Speaker 2:Mm-hmm. Do you know what I mean? I do the same thing. I have the longest grieving period and I know we're gonna end up talking about shame today and I get, i get. I start gaslighting myself and feeling bad about it, like why can't you let this person go? Why can't you let this thing go? Like what is wrong with you? I?
Speaker 1:have a. I have a thought about that. We kind of we kind of started to talk about that and we were like put it on the podcast. I think that living in 2022, in the age of social media, where we are constantly digitally available to everyone, is doing this this huge disservice, because we're constantly grieving relationships that we can't ever permanently let go of. Yeah, like, imagine like 20 years ago when there was like no real social media or anything like we understand it now. You would simply go through seasons of your life where you were accountable.
Speaker 1:To maybe 50 to maybe 200 people, depending on who you are and what you're doing, but like daily accountable, maybe to your family, you live with, people you work with Through that season and, let's say that season comes to an end and you move on and you go Into this next season of your life. And here we are now in these lives where we are Accountable for everything we say, do, post, look at and talk about on social media And we are accountable to thousands of people who have known us in these different versions of ourselves And we're trying to like accommodate all of that Everywhere at all times. And it's not natural like I really believe in, like the cyclical, seasonal concept of like life. Like the earth has seasons, nature has seasons we go through and it's like here I am, still work like because I still have people like on my Facebook from like 15 years ago that I'm worried about like Not wanting to get in an argument with and it's like, well, what the hell?
Speaker 1:Yeah, they don't know what does that mean like, yeah, but then if you go through and you filter everyone out, it can be that is that unhealthy because, like we talked about this before, is that an echo chamber? Or then we only curating our, our online experience to like echo back what we think. In this moment I don't know.
Speaker 2:I Know I go back and forth and I I put this out Last week I'm I am desperately trying to scale My social way down to people like that. I actually know like literally a couple hundred people lock everything on private and just share to the people that I Actually want around or like that I know if I did call, would pick up the phone and First of all Meta or whoever is running, is like it is damn near impossible. You literally have to go account by account, like they don't make it easy to disconnect. I want people in my life. I don't have capacity, like I don't have time. Social fatigue Yes, yes, i I'm putting energy into stuff and people that, like that, aren't the phone call people and that don't matter and That takes away from the people that actually do that. I want to spend more time with that, i want to engage with that, i want to share my life with and so Well then, noise, it has to go like socially in person. Wherever I'm drawing a hard line and it is painful but it's necessary.
Speaker 1:Do you think that maybe recognizing your chameleoning Is a way of recognizing what relationships are real and not?
Speaker 2:Yes, it's, and that's another thing where here comes the shame around it, because I'm like man. How did I show, how did I show up for this person? Did I just mirror them To make them feel comfortable? and do whatever we needed to do, or was I actually real, and so that is that's kind of a a definition that I'm using. If I showed up as myself, they can stay. If I showed up as somebody else, to like, appease then, or like the obligatory version of yourself.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah. Then they got to go because, honestly, they don't even know me. Then They don't know me. They don't know that my true self, i, you know, like I said, we talked about this too but like kind of loving every version of yourself. I can't remember if I sent it to you. So I'm a Pisces and I cry sometimes.
Speaker 1:I love it. That's I know it. I know about that soft ender, billy Rachel.
Speaker 2:I'm really tough, but I do cries. I cry a lot more now that I'm 40, but at things that are beautiful and not so much sadness. No, you just rage.
Speaker 1:You just rage at everything else.
Speaker 2:Yeah, everything else gets rage. but like, if it there, if I see, if I see like sweetness or love, like animals and like old people, have my heart like. I literally cried at the last time I was at the airport. I cried because I saw a little grandpa get go get a sandwich, cut it and share it with his little grandma partner and they had matching hats, i know right.
Speaker 1:Michael, then better get a matching hat situation.
Speaker 2:But I saw this great and see this is where social can be a great tool too. But, like I saw this um, this video of this little grandpa talking about, i think he had been married for 70 years and like what was his secret to success And it was that he has. He has loved every version of his Yes, dude, i saw that, Yes, It was so sweet And so I.
Speaker 2:That's kind of like what I want in my relationships, right, Like if we were, if you're going to hang around, if I can't love you in every version probably not looking good for either of us, like friendships, like whatever, like romantic relationships, whatever it might be. So I got a clean house because I have found that, um, you know, I'm, I'm linked to until death collective, which is a community, Um, yeah, people just trying to do active things and support each other through life And um, that has been like a refresh.
Speaker 2:So like I'm letting some friends go, but because of that, you know the Zypher is to receive some amazing new people where I haven't had to fake it or chameleon or anything, i just get to show up as I am and they're totally into it. So I think there is something where, like there is a capacity issue, i have to like let go of the stuff and the people and things that don't really matter in order to this, for this new stuff to come in, and because I'm so fully commit, committed to not going back Yeah, like I can't go back And so a lot of these past these friendships put me back to old Rachel and she's she's not there, she's gone.
Speaker 1:Yes, Yes, well, and I feel, look I that resonates with me so hard. I feel like part of the hard thing for me, like transitioning right, like I've shared on a couple of previous episodes about, like you know, my identity crisis one of many I've been through in the past couple of years but like I feel like that was part of it with this last one, it's like it's not just releasing like a version of yourself that is like no longer needed, right, it's it's also releasing the people who were, who were a part of that package.
Speaker 2:Yeah, And I'm just.
Speaker 1:I drag my feet so hard and I feel like that's why I experienced resistance, because you just said, like I know I got to cut this loose to like get to the next place. You know, and I'm just like I have this like vision of me just like drag, like hanging on to like the basket of a hot air balloon, just dragging my feet. No, And it's like once I just like knock it off, I can like take off, but it takes me so long to get there And it's so tough, And I feel like I don't know if like that just happens with everyone or is that just a you and me thing. Are we just weird, Like?
Speaker 2:I know, i know some people, actually women too I was going to say men, but women too, that can, that can just cut, just goodbye. Or they don't even get that invested to start, like they really audit from the get go and don't even go into it Like I that was another thing that I've been like thinking about the last few weeks is that I, emotionally, i'm someone I'd like even know it exhausts me, but I like to experience all the emotions, all of them. I like to feel every little thing. That's why I'm crying at the airport with grandma and grandpa is eating a sandwich. Like I'm a. I like being a deep feeler, mostly because most of my life I didn't. I thought there was something wrong with me and I didn't embrace it. I was embarrassed by it.
Speaker 1:See, it comes back to true confidence, like radical self-acceptance, like this is who I am. I can no longer fight it or deny it. I'm no longer, i cannot chameleon anymore. This is who I am. So I might as well just like balls to the wall, white knuckle it And I feel like correct me if I'm wrong like we've both experienced this like already, because you're, you're on social. You're basically like you know, rachel Perry, i don't know, i don't know if you know this, but you're kind of a big deal on the internet, but also like with me. I've been blogging for like years And so there's like a element of like exposure that I have out there that can feel really scary Sometimes when I share like really raw kind of intimate things about myself, like in the name of art, i always freak out after I post it and I'm like what am I doing? This is thirsty, i'm too, and I do this whole spiral and then I'm finally just like well, fuck it.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Like it's out there, this is who I really am.
Speaker 1:That's really how I feel that there it is, and it's just like I have to just sort of like sit in the discomfort until it goes away. And would you agree that committing to each other to show up in the raw and vulnerable way we have decided to do this podcast is like, do you mean what you say? A hundred percent? And I feel like that's sort of causing the Harry Potter shifting stairs right now, because we have been showing up and like just telling the truth about how we feel about these things And it seems kind of scary. But here we are, white knuckling it And I feel like it's doing a lot of work that I haven't been aware of until Yeah, A hundred percent.
Speaker 1:Does that make sense, when I'm saying I don't know if I sound confusing, but it's like it's really really forcing me to filter, to filter out, like who is going to just like still ride for me when I'm letting my whole raw true self just hang out here in public?
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely, cause I I'm wanting in this phase, i'm wanting more. I don't think privacy is the right word or made as privacy, but I'm wanting more like intimacy, and so for me that means like a smaller, it's like we talk about, like the right message for the right group of people at the right time, and I feel like that this podcast is like bringing bringing the people that resonate with it closer to us And it actually feels like it a little. It creates a little bit of safety for me. Yeah, because, especially like the, the responses and the questions and the engagement that we get. We have a small audience, but they they're with us, like they're, they're saying yes, like loud, yes.
Speaker 1:I I understand. Yes, this is what I'm experiencing too, which is super cool.
Speaker 2:Which is the other, the other reason why I want to really like scale down and close up my socials, because I want that with my, the people that I know too Like. I want that intimacy And I feel like I I've, you know, given away love to everyone with no boundaries for so long, and now I just want like this little safe space, like this little utopia with my people.
Speaker 1:Yeah, i love that When. when you say I want to scale back my socials, what does that mean? Because I know for me it's been pretty wild. I mean it's been pretty wild because I went from like posting all the time and being very active on my socials to being like a desert tumbleweed The past couple of months And I think people are just like Hey, are you okay? And I'm like, but I don't know if I've done the best job, it just really ran. So what does that mean for you? And, like you know, help a girl out.
Speaker 2:For me, it's removing followers, unfollowing people, but also posting whatever the fuck I want. Yes, i have found myself, and I don't even know why. It's not like I. my page is not a professional page, it's like a personal page. It's a collection of things that I love and care about, which is also like part of my career too Is that sure, something that I love.
Speaker 2:Well, like, sometimes I just want to like post a meme, or like a cat, like a video of a cat, and I don't, and that makes no sense, because I'm not trying to do or be or sell anything other than myself. And so I also am finding that, like now, when I'm out in the world, like I even think the last couple of weeks I've been on these incredible adventures and I've taken like a dozen pictures and a couple videos because I'm so into, because it doesn't. I'm not trying to post or like, think of anything, i'm just there to enjoy the experience and I'm like, what the hell? Like this is another thing where I'm like, what was I doing? Well, that's what I care.
Speaker 1:Well, because I think that it's part of the the concept of quote unquote leadership is, and I have been so guilty of touting that like about social media to people Like I've literally like been hired as a like a consultant to help people and teams like with social media, and I have been like no, this is the play, this is like how you show up, this is and I know it works because I've done it and I've you know, and I know that XYZ works and I it feels uncomfortable, having like internally grown past that.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:I'm no longer operating from like a wounded place of like look at me, i'm providing value, i'm doing this, i'm doing that. I want to be seen and heard and like validated externally. Like the more that is really truly happening on the inside, the less and less I want to participate in this thing out here, Yeah, but yet here we are, like doing a podcast and we have to like promote it and get it out into the world. So we have to. You know, like I want to be available to like people who are wanting to have this real conversation, but the audience is getting smaller and smaller because it's no longer just like this broad thing where I'm fawning and trying to write blog posts that are going to just be, you know, accepted everywhere by everyone, or podcast episodes, or you know what I mean. Like the more I just like you.
Speaker 1:You just said it like showing up and not caring about what you're posting or how you're being perceived. Yeah. There's such freedom, in that that seems scary to people who have like, who are counting on you to be a version of you. They need you to be.
Speaker 2:Yes, I know, Cause I even think I have. I have employees from now almost 10 years ago still reach out about stuff and I'm like if social didn't exist, this wouldn't be happening.
Speaker 1:Absolutely not. You would be just some random person. They'd be like Oh, i had this one coworker I knew one time. Yeah, i knew it. Now I know like people I went to third grade with and like how many times they've been married and like for no reason, like I, like I don't interact with them, i don't. But yet here we are accountable socially to all these people and it's a huge burden, i think.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's another. it's just another thing that's got to go. Like we, like I said, i'm just feel like you and I have been like letting go and letting go till we kind of joke. but also it's a little alarming, like if like well, do we have left? and I think, as as we narrow that, i'm like, oh, what we have left is like the sauce.
Speaker 1:Right, like, it's like the magic.
Speaker 2:Yeah, the thing that we're actually trying to get at. So, yeah, it's scary to like let things and people go, but the end result is what we're trying to.
Speaker 1:It's like what we're fighting for. Do you believe.
Speaker 1:Okay, So do you think and this is kind of just a question I'm throwing out there For everyone is this a human experience? or is this exclusive to those of us who are having the human experience? post Panini times, right, Like the evolution of family and relationship? Is it like being impacted this way because of current events that are creating divides and impacting our connection? Or is this just what happens as you grow older and you become more self aware and you do your work? Like is this? is this exclusive to the times we're living in, with social media and all the current events that are wild, or is this part of the human experience?
Speaker 2:I would say that the current times pandemic, the last couple of like 2020, last couple of years has has sped it up for me. I don't think I would be. I think I would eventually get here, but I think it would have taken longer because everything got so noisy and I was absolutely caught up in the spin of it, like the heavy, heavy spin of it between I'm in Utah now but between the murder of George Floyd happening down the street from where I live, like there was so much noise and all I wanted to do was like hide out And, as a result, that hiding led me to this because I got quiet and I had a minute to like be a actually more than a minute. I had months and months of months of time literally alone for the first time in my life was me and my dog and sometimes Brendan, but there wasn't anything else to do other than start figuring this shit out.
Speaker 1:It was kind of like a concentrated effort, right there, i would agree with that too, very much, so it's like it's an accelerated path.
Speaker 1:I feel like we've been on plus, i don't know if like even and this could be like a subject for another podcast episode but like generationally too. I think that we collectively are all experiencing like a willingness to talk about stuff and like our feelings and patterns and our toxic traits and what's healthy and what's not, and what's good for us and what's not, in a way that, like I know, my parents did not, my grandparents certainly did not like. we're experiencing this kind of conversation and relationship dynamics, i think for the first time at least you know, like like generationally. I think that's interesting and I think that has something to do with it.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, big time. So there's kind of like a lot of the tension that we feel is kind of there's like a group that has committed to like no, we can't go back. And then there's a group that's like no, but we have to hang on.
Speaker 1:No, the good old days.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we have to hang on to this thing. So I'm so interested and you and I talked about before, like our generation, like our age if you're around age 40, we're kind of like this weird mediator. that's like I think we're ending a lot of stuff that needed to end, but also not still not the leaders, and like what's coming next.
Speaker 1:So like right, It's like a hinge Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, like we gave people younger than us permission to start exploring it, but we didn't really do it ourselves. Yeah, we're doing it now, when we're older, but they're like blazing the way. Yeah, they're starting to do it way younger.
Speaker 1:I agree, and it's super.
Speaker 2:I didn't have hope for a long time. I really didn't. I was just like fuck humanity, like we're fucked, like this is, this is how it is. But I really see that drive, especially with people younger than us, of we cannot go back, we will not go back, and that brings me hope.
Speaker 1:Well, that goes back, yes, That goes back to that like train, the momentum train thing too. Like what you, what you look for, you will find right. And so, like, when you start to get hopeful, then you start to see more things to like get hopeful about. And I like that like. Like I know what you're talking about, like there's been some times and even still like, if I let myself, like you know, watch the news too long, man, there goes my momentum in the in the direction I don't want it in. But when you know, when you're your cognizant of that and I try to, you know I want to stay informed, i don't want to be ignorant stuff going on. But, like You know, i also not at the cost of my momentum, in my vibration, you know what I mean like I will carefully Pay attention when I'm marinating in so that I don't find myself back in like the angry, you know weird, you scared vibes, like that's not cool.
Speaker 1:Do you think that? then it all comes down to like genuine connection. Like what does that mean? Like if we, if we understand what genuine connection is and we know it's worth fighting for and worth like releasing Relationships for the don't have it, even though that's super uncomfortable what is that then?
Speaker 1:what does that look like, what does that feel like, so that we know it and can like keep chasing after that?
Speaker 2:For me it's, it's the ability. anytime I don't Trust a feeling or red flag, like I'm always right. you know, it's about intuition, about feeling, and energy is a currency, right, so you get back what you give in. So this is actually, and I'm like, for whatever reason, i'm emotional, saying this out loud, but I don't know if I have a definition yet, because I'm so new to connecting with my real self.
Speaker 2:Yes, that's so good and so I think I'll lean back. What I, what's been working, is leaning back on feelings. I'm a deep feeler. I can literally walk into a room and not have a conversation with anyone and have a pretty good sense of who they are and what they're about, which again, we talked about this earlier. Like I didn't like that about myself for a long time, i thought it was a curse. So really leaning into that and seeing what happens. but I think my definition is gonna, is gonna, is still forming, because I'm still that new To this authentic. I'll freaking love you. I love that you shared.
Speaker 1:No, seriously, that's because that's real shit, and you had even said earlier which I'm so glad you you answered that way because it reminded me That I wanted to circle back. You said something earlier about gaslighting yourself, and I think it's so interesting because if it really all comes down to genuine connection and we can't understand what genuine connection is without Genuinely connecting with our authentic self, which always comes back to real confidence then What does that mean? right? what do you mean by gaslighting yourself? What I didn't even know you could gaslight yourself?
Speaker 2:until I started reading about it, which is also just like part of this, you know, spiritual during like this next phase. I feel like I'm very much into like research and reading And like really understanding for me, and maybe it's my trainer brain, like we know, i'm all in on the woo woo, but I still need a little bit of science. Yes, to really like. I feel like that's funny To really hate home. So gaslighting is really mean, not, is really me trying to not validate what I'm actually feeling or like diminishing it. It's like with that saying that, a horrible saying that boomers, my parents include you say like you got to eat all your food because some child in Africa, you know, wants it.
Speaker 2:Like that's what gaslighting is right in my mind. So I will, instead of feeling what I need to feel without shame and without judgment, i'll gaslight myself and I will literally judge myself and try to say, well, it's not that bad, it could be worse. Out of the feeling and I have to be I catch myself doing it all the time And then I get shame around it Because I'm like I'm 40. How am I gaslighting myself? and I always like laugh at this question, but it's kind of weird. But, like, if I live in this body, why don't I have control? Like, why don't I have control over my own thoughts? Why am I gaslighting myself?
Speaker 1:That doesn't well, and not to get too like Eckhart toll on you, but like like, whose voice is that then, the critical voice? If it's talking to you, who's saying it? It ain't you, yeah, doodledoo, doodledoo. Oh, you want to add, don't you? And this is where we get weird.
Speaker 1:So, I think this is kind of the perfect point to talk about those Instagram questions. Yes, actually, we have a perfect listener question. We've decided that we are going to try to, at the end of every episode, spill our guts with questions that you guys have provided for us. We have the perfect question actually, rachel, i think you have that one. If you could share that.
Speaker 2:So we had two different people ask the same question honestly of which is why we have to answer it. Yes, which is what do you do or what can you do when shame shows up, when shame arises And for me I have to label it right away, like I have to, in order to address it or just sit in it and be like it's OK. I should, i should set up my phone and like record myself during the day for how much I talk to myself out loud.
Speaker 1:Oh, yeah, absolutely I talk to myself.
Speaker 2:I literally like it's OK, you can do that. The amount of things times a day I say you can do this to myself would blow people's mind.
Speaker 1:I love that the amount of times I call myself bitch during the day with people.
Speaker 1:I'm like bitch, listen, just just hurry up, so OK. So how do you identify when you're in shame? And I'm asking that because, like you had said, oh, i guess like myself and I do this and I do that, and I'm thinking to myself, ok, to me that sounds like a limiting belief. I've also been gaslighting myself, but like I've just been calling it a different thing, which is like, ok, i have this, i hold this like belief about myself. That I know is limiting and not true And it's like the same thing but it's. But for me it's like, like you just said, it's identifying it, just using it as an example, not to, like, you know, keep beating a dead horse.
Speaker 1:But, like my transition into this new job I had to take, i was having all this shame and struggling with it and I really it took me weeks you guys know you've been with me to kind of like, like, finally get below the feelings and figure out where it was coming from. It really had nothing to do with the job or the experience or anything like that. It was just having to release this like feeling that I had failed And what was underneath that was realizing that I was still doing it quote, unquote for the wrong reasons And that was tough to realize because it's like all of my reasons were valiant And I thought you know very selfless and honorable and it's like, really underneath all of it was still me vibrating to this belief that I wanted to still be accepted and appear successful to certain people.
Speaker 1:And that was, and it took. You know, i could have learned that lesson probably several times in the past couple years, but it took that final sort of like thing being taken away from me for me to really get underneath the feeling and like identify it. And then there was freedom.
Speaker 2:You ended with my favorite word I think. I don't know if you've watched. I don't know if you have HBO, but I've been watching Bernay Browns.
Speaker 1:Oh, yeah, love her.
Speaker 2:So I would highly like there's plenty of books and Ted talks and stuff of hers, but her series is so good right now And besides, like her tips and tools, like, besides naming it, which will help you, like, then.
Speaker 1:Kind of examine it from a Yeah, kind of like get a bird's eye view on it instead of being down in it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, But she talks about that shame. One is an extremely powerful emotion for humans, but if you bottom line it, it's it's fear that we're not good enough And that's that's it Like if we bottom line what it is and kind of, the remedy is connection, connection to.
Speaker 1:It's almost like we planned it. Guys, what do you?
Speaker 2:mean by that connection to yourself, connecting to the feeling again, like if we, if we kind of like, speak shame into existence and own it for what it is, then we can let it roll. Like I try to, especially as such an emotional person, i try to think of, i don't hang on to emotions, i try to like let them roll. So when I start feeling shame, i like, i consciously think, like, just like, let it roll, like let it come through.
Speaker 1:I love that you said that because in one of the first things I learned in my Reiki certification was that the Latin root of the word emotion is move, array, and it means to move, and our emotions are genuinely supposed to move us, like, navigate us. Like when something feels good and joyful and peaceful, you're supposed to move toward the thing, and when something feels painful and hurtful and stressful, we're supposed to. That's an alarm system built within our ancient body to alert us to move away from it, and we don't. I just looked up the definition of shame.
Speaker 2:And.
Speaker 1:I think it's very interesting because it was presented as both a noun and a verb. So the noun definition of shame is a painful feeling of humiliation or distressed caused by the consciousness of wrong or foolish behavior, and the example is she was hot with shame. And the verb says of a person, action or situation making or made someone feel ashamed, and the example is I tried to shame him into giving some away. And I think that's interesting because what you just said was more of the shame verb, like using shame as a tool versus experiencing it as that's interesting, yeah, and so, like shame kind of, has two, two, two roles, two parts.
Speaker 2:Yeah, which is why it's so powerful, can feel overwhelming. And something that I always and always I was working on is Bernay also talks where, like, shame can't exist in an environment or or space that has empathy Yeah, what did you say? it cannot serve.
Speaker 2:Mama Bernay have a post a little like post a shame cannot survive being spoken. It cannot survive empathy And I. I struggle with empathy or I'll gaslight myself like I won't. I won't express love for myself as much as I would. It's easier for me to do it for other people because of my good girl programming.
Speaker 1:There it is, folks, and we just came full circle beach. Maybe, right there I'm feeling, i'm feeling something. I'm feeling something special about to happen. Maybe that, maybe that right there is empathy, is the indicator between what is shame and what is humility, because humility is, in my opinion, positive. Humility is a growth feeling. Humility is not great, not fun, but humility is winsome when you embrace it the right way, when you can admit you're wrong, when you can see your partner thing, when you can own it, when you can say it out loud. It's winsome. Shame does not provide any of that shame. I don't feel like shame provides any, anything useful. So, like I was going to ask you what, what do you think the difference is between shame and humility? and you answered before I even asked you, because I think it's empathy And if you're not practicing it with yourself, how can you practice it outside of yourself? And I think that's where a lot of people get stuck, because we're really good at having empathy for people around us.
Speaker 2:But why?
Speaker 1:can't we give that same empathy to ourselves? Because once you do and you start showing up for yourself, then everybody thinks you're being a bitch. All right. Well, i think we've basically solved the world problems. Sounds all right to me. I feel better, i feel great. Well, listen, spill your guts podcast listeners. If you guys have burning questions you want us to spill our guts about, please, please, please, let us know. Send a raven, send a dm, reach out, we are here. We also want to know your thoughts and feelings about relationships, friendships. Are you experiencing this stuff too? are we just weird? what's going on?
Speaker 2:on.
Speaker 1:Rachel Don, as usual, thank you for sharing your art with me, and I love you. And, jesse, you're the man hey we'll see you guys next time.